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	<title>Comments on: Slides from Outside-In Development with Cucumber</title>
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	<link>http://www.benmabey.com/2009/03/14/slides-from-outside-in-development-with-cucumber/</link>
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		<title>By: Eric Berry</title>
		<link>http://www.benmabey.com/2009/03/14/slides-from-outside-in-development-with-cucumber/comment-page-1/#comment-2387</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Berry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Apr 2009 21:22:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.benmabey.com/?p=78#comment-2387</guid>
		<description>Great presentation.  I am also glad Ryan Bates covered this as well.  I&#039;m excited to see this in action and even more excited to work it into my existing projects this weekend!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great presentation.  I am also glad Ryan Bates covered this as well.  I&#8217;m excited to see this in action and even more excited to work it into my existing projects this weekend!</p>
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		<title>By: Melvin Ram</title>
		<link>http://www.benmabey.com/2009/03/14/slides-from-outside-in-development-with-cucumber/comment-page-1/#comment-2386</link>
		<dc:creator>Melvin Ram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 07:30:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.benmabey.com/?p=78#comment-2386</guid>
		<description>PS: I&#039;ve read through The Rspec Book beta and the way you presented BDD makes the info presented in the book make so much more sense. I&#039;m in a similar place mentally as Brian... where BDD &amp; testing just seems slow and really breaks the flow of programming... but I&#039;m hopeful it&#039;ll just click soon and speed will build. Today I came across your presentation and a few others that really made the light bulb go on... so to quote Bill Gates, &quot;I&#039;m optimistic!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PS: I&#8217;ve read through The Rspec Book beta and the way you presented BDD makes the info presented in the book make so much more sense. I&#8217;m in a similar place mentally as Brian&#8230; where BDD &amp; testing just seems slow and really breaks the flow of programming&#8230; but I&#8217;m hopeful it&#8217;ll just click soon and speed will build. Today I came across your presentation and a few others that really made the light bulb go on&#8230; so to quote Bill Gates, &#8220;I&#8217;m optimistic!&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Melvin Ram</title>
		<link>http://www.benmabey.com/2009/03/14/slides-from-outside-in-development-with-cucumber/comment-page-1/#comment-2385</link>
		<dc:creator>Melvin Ram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Mar 2009 07:23:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.benmabey.com/?p=78#comment-2385</guid>
		<description>Ben, your presentation has been one of the best introductions to BDD I have seen. Thanks so much!

-Mel</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ben, your presentation has been one of the best introductions to BDD I have seen. Thanks so much!</p>
<p>-Mel</p>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.benmabey.com/2009/03/14/slides-from-outside-in-development-with-cucumber/comment-page-1/#comment-2380</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Mar 2009 23:32:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.benmabey.com/?p=78#comment-2380</guid>
		<description>Hey Brian,
Thanks for the comment.  I&#039;ll go ahead and answer it, but FYI a better place for this type of question is the &lt;a href=&#039;http://wiki.github.com/aslakhellesoy/cucumber/get-in-touch&#039; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Cucumber mailing list&lt;/a&gt;.  You may want to ask this question there to get other people&#039;s opinion.

There is certainly a learning curve involved that will slow you down until you become more comfortable with Cucumber and the related tools.  Cucumber, alone, is pretty simple but if you are learning the entire RSpec and Webrat APIs as well that will certainly slow things down.  Getting the process down in general also takes time. However, once you have been at it for a while you will develop a rhythm and &lt;em&gt;you will get faster at it&lt;/em&gt;.  You will also be able to judge better on what unit tests really add value and which ones are a waste of time.

The process in general is one that I think will appear to take longer initially than development with no tests at all.  To be fair though, by starting with the business value first you may save yourself hours of time by deciding not to add certain features that really provide no value.  The upfront requirement gathering that Cucumber encourages has helped save me hours of going down the wrong path on numerous occasions. So it is a really hard comparison to make. In general the process is a big time saver in the long run IMO.  A better design tends to emerge with the use of unit tests which lends itself to lower maintenance costs and makes it much cheaper to add new features.

I hope that answers your question, and if not try posting to the mailing list. :)

-Ben</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Brian,<br />
Thanks for the comment.  I&#8217;ll go ahead and answer it, but FYI a better place for this type of question is the <a href='http://wiki.github.com/aslakhellesoy/cucumber/get-in-touch' rel="nofollow">Cucumber mailing list</a>.  You may want to ask this question there to get other people&#8217;s opinion.</p>
<p>There is certainly a learning curve involved that will slow you down until you become more comfortable with Cucumber and the related tools.  Cucumber, alone, is pretty simple but if you are learning the entire RSpec and Webrat APIs as well that will certainly slow things down.  Getting the process down in general also takes time. However, once you have been at it for a while you will develop a rhythm and <em>you will get faster at it</em>.  You will also be able to judge better on what unit tests really add value and which ones are a waste of time.</p>
<p>The process in general is one that I think will appear to take longer initially than development with no tests at all.  To be fair though, by starting with the business value first you may save yourself hours of time by deciding not to add certain features that really provide no value.  The upfront requirement gathering that Cucumber encourages has helped save me hours of going down the wrong path on numerous occasions. So it is a really hard comparison to make. In general the process is a big time saver in the long run IMO.  A better design tends to emerge with the use of unit tests which lends itself to lower maintenance costs and makes it much cheaper to add new features.</p>
<p>I hope that answers your question, and if not try posting to the mailing list. <img src='http://www.benmabey.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>-Ben</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://www.benmabey.com/2009/03/14/slides-from-outside-in-development-with-cucumber/comment-page-1/#comment-2379</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Mar 2009 22:21:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.benmabey.com/?p=78#comment-2379</guid>
		<description>Hey Ben, thanks for the great talk (I was present) and for posting the slides. Not sure if this is the best venue for a question like this, but here goes: I&#039;ve been going through the rspec book and have reviewed your slides and am trying my best to do outside in using cucumber and rspec and friends. My problem is that it feels really slow. Is this just a side effect of the learning curve? Does everyone experience this and eventually, with practice, they get faster? Or is this just how it is? The slowness is a price payed for higher quality software? 

This feels a lot like when I was first learning guitar (still am). It was comforting and encouraging to hear experienced ppl tell me that with practice, I&#039;d get better/faster. I&#039;m hoping for someone to tell me that about BDD and outside in :) and that I just need to push through the learning curve.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Ben, thanks for the great talk (I was present) and for posting the slides. Not sure if this is the best venue for a question like this, but here goes: I&#8217;ve been going through the rspec book and have reviewed your slides and am trying my best to do outside in using cucumber and rspec and friends. My problem is that it feels really slow. Is this just a side effect of the learning curve? Does everyone experience this and eventually, with practice, they get faster? Or is this just how it is? The slowness is a price payed for higher quality software? </p>
<p>This feels a lot like when I was first learning guitar (still am). It was comforting and encouraging to hear experienced ppl tell me that with practice, I&#8217;d get better/faster. I&#8217;m hoping for someone to tell me that about BDD and outside in <img src='http://www.benmabey.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  and that I just need to push through the learning curve.</p>
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		<title>By: Dr Nic</title>
		<link>http://www.benmabey.com/2009/03/14/slides-from-outside-in-development-with-cucumber/comment-page-1/#comment-2378</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr Nic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 09:05:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.benmabey.com/?p=78#comment-2378</guid>
		<description>Great presentation; I&#039;ve been sharing it around the office.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great presentation; I&#8217;ve been sharing it around the office.</p>
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		<title>By: Ennuyer.net &#187; Blog Archive &#187; 2009-03-15- Today’s Ruby/Rails Reading</title>
		<link>http://www.benmabey.com/2009/03/14/slides-from-outside-in-development-with-cucumber/comment-page-1/#comment-2377</link>
		<dc:creator>Ennuyer.net &#187; Blog Archive &#187; 2009-03-15- Today’s Ruby/Rails Reading</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Mar 2009 21:21:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.benmabey.com/?p=78#comment-2377</guid>
		<description>[...]  Slides from Outside-In Development with Cucumber • Blog Archive • Ben Mabey  [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...]  Slides from Outside-In Development with Cucumber • Blog Archive • Ben Mabey  [...]</p>
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